Re: [-empyre-] metaphor

"Joel Weishaus" <weishaus@pdx.edu> · Sun, 23 Nov 2003 15:33:09 -0800

Here's where we disagree. You think mathematics is a given, and I think it's
a human invention. Maybe someone knows how to resolve this.

-Joel

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Sondheim" <sondheim@panix.com>
To: "soft_skinned_space" <empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [-empyre-] metaphor

>
>
> Well, not really I think. The outcome is always changed along predictable
> lines - it's not random. It's qualitative and bounded at least within
> fuzzy set theory, probabilities, etc. Heisenberg's tricky that way -
>
> Alan
>
>
> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, Joel Weishaus wrote:
>
> > This is the scientific model: we're discovering what's already there.
But if
> > our observations, our measurements, also change the outcome, as quantum
> > mechanics tells us, isn't there an irony here? We're discovering what
we're
> > creating!
> >
> > -Joel
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Alan Sondheim" <sondheim@panix.com>
> > To: "soft_skinned_space" <empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 9:25 AM
> > Subject: Re: [-empyre-] metaphor
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I tend to believe that mathematics was discovered, not invented - and
> > > within this lies, literally, all the difference in the world. - Alan
> > >
> > > On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, Joel Weishaus wrote:
> > >
> > > > Scientific models work to describe the world for which science is
> > equipped
> > > > to find. The moment mathematics was invented it set this course. But
> > there
> > > > may be worlds that science has not adapted to recognize. After all,
> > science
> > > > was evolved by the brain, and the brain evolved in order to allow
our
> > > > species to survive. Science, and its proactive partner, technology,
has
> > more
> > > > to do with survivability than the possible spectrum of reality.
> > > >
> > > > On the other hand, art is not about _how_ to survive, but the
_reason_
> > to
> > > > survive. Thus, in countries that practice institutional violence,
like
> > the
> > > > present US Government, science is well-funded, while art is
something
> > extra.
> > > >
> > > >  -Joel
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Jim Andrews" <jim@vispo.com>
> > > > To: "Soft_Skinned_Space" <empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 2:16 PM
> > > > Subject: [-empyre-] metaphor
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > It's interesting to think of the role of 'superstition' in science
> > over
> > > > the
> > > > > years and how that has continually been regarded with a dubious
eye.
> > Some
> > > > > would think it is no longer present in scientific discourse, but
talk
> > > > about
> > > > > such relatively mysterious realms as quantum mechanics is, at
least in
> > the
> > > > > popular literature, full of references to shamanism and
consciousness
> > as a
> > > > > 'force' that acts upon things. The more scientific training it
takes
> > to
> > > > > actually understand the science, the more open it becomes to
popular
> > > > > misconception. Literary science? Science fiction or science email?
> > Also,
> > > > > fallacious 'proofs' (Penrose) that humans can do things like solve
the
> > > > > halting problem are published and become best sellers. We live in
a
> > > > magical
> > > > > time, do we not? Giordano Bruno's time has nothing over on ours,
in
> > this
> > > > > regard.
> > > > >
> > > > > The alchemy of poetry and art is, at least in part, in the way
that it
> > > > > operates metaphorically in such a way as to make it profoundly
> > resonant
> > > > with
> > > > > the inner world. Its truth is of a different kind than the truth
> > sought by
> > > > > science. Are the propositions of science, couched within
mathematical
> > > > > abstractions, essentially metaphorical in that they are directly
about
> > the
> > > > > abstract models and only indirectly about 'a way the world is', or
are
> > the
> > > > > mathematical models in some fundamental correspondence with 'the
way
> > > > things
> > > > > are'? We can amass experimental evidence to the point that, for
> > instance,
> > > > > the existence of the atom, as described in the mathematical
models,
> > can
> > > > > hardly be contested, yet our conceptions about it are necessarily
> > models,
> > > > > metaphors. So perhaps our understanding is necessarily
metaphorical in
> > its
> > > > > operations and there will always be this diffusion of superstition
> > through
> > > > > science, which nonetheless seeks some objectivity from the vaguely
> > > > personal.
> > > > > To imbue stones with consciousness, to postulate an animistic
> > universe, is
> > > > > quite resonant with the inner world, isn't it. Whether it is a
> > hypothesis
> > > > > that is of any use in science is another matter.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is probably like the question of how many angels can dance on
the
> > head
> > > > of
> > > > > a pin. That is my feeling, also, about the question of free will
vs
> > > > > determinism. The question of how many angels can dance on the head
of
> > a
> > > > pin
> > > > > involves assumptions that are not required in science (angels) and
the
> > > > > 'answer' is inconsequential to science. The question of free will
> > versus
> > > > > determinism, in popular thinking, often involves the assumption
that
> > an
> > > > > algorithmic model of how thought operates limits thought in ways
that
> > > > cannot
> > > > > be demonstrated.
> > > > >
> > > > > ja
> > > > > http://vispo.com/animisms (kinetic poetry with soul)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > empyre forum
> > > > > empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> > > > > http://www.subtle.net/empyre
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > empyre forum
> > > > empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> > > > http://www.subtle.net/empyre
> > > >
> > >
> > > http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko
> > > http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt
> > > Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm
> > > finger sondheim@panix.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > empyre forum
> > > empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> > > http://www.subtle.net/empyre
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > empyre forum
> > empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> > http://www.subtle.net/empyre
> >
>
> http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko
> http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt
> Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm
> finger sondheim@panix.com
> _______________________________________________
> empyre forum
> empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> http://www.subtle.net/empyre